Posto alcune immagini di particolari che commenterò in seguito:

Murcia diventerà parte del Regno di Castiglia nel gennaio del 1266, non penso che se anticipo di 1 anno la conquista ci saranno problemi


Il nord Italia è troppo piccolo nella mia mappa per rappresentare tutte le frazioni in cui è diviso... purtroppo posso rappresentare solo Genova, Milano, Firenze e Venezia e tralasciare tutto il resto, anche se magari molto importanti come il Patriarcato di Aquileia


Il Ducato di Bretagna non l'ho mai rappresentato, ma visto che ho la possibilità di inserirlo, penso proprio che farò un paio di modifiche in Francia, sempre che Silverwolf approvi perchè io non sono sicuro al 100%


L'Irlanda non centra nulla con quella consigliatami da Silverwolf, penso che terrò quella che ho...


In Scozia ci sono ancora dei territori occupati dal Regno di Norvegia, ma non penso di avere spazio per rappresentarli... vedrò in fase di modifica se magari aggiungerne almeno 1.


Il territorio in mano alla Danimarca, Reval e Narva, non l'ho rappresentato e non penso di riuscire a farlo per mancanza di spazio


Lo sbocco sul mare della Lituania non l'ho rappresentato, ma penso di poterlo fare


La Polonia in CK2 è un regno unito (mi sembra a prima vista, non l'ho provato a giocare), in realtà in quel periodo era diviso e in lotta per la successione, per cui penso che manterrò il mio stato attuale (magari in seguito approfondirò meglio come è trattato nel gioco).


L'espansione del Khanato dell'Orda d'Oro qui è maggiore che nel mio, non molto, per cui lascerò lo stato attuale della mia mappa.


Qui la Serbia è più grande, l'Impero Bizantino è separato dalla Serbia, ma penso sia un limite del gioco su PC che ha delle suddivisioni dei territori fisse che non possono rappresentare tutte le casistiche...


Il regno della Georgia è un pò differente, io ho messo l'Alania e non ho messo Tao e Albania... magari correggo.


I Regni di Seleukeia e Baalbek non li avevo mai sentiti...


La striscia costiera del Regno di Gerusalemme non riesco a rappresentarla... poco spazio...


Il Regno degli Hafsidi mi sa proprio che diventerà il giocatore che sostituisce gli Almohadi...


Infatti pare proprio che il Regno degli Almohadi sia troppo in sfacelo in quel periodo:

In attesa che Silverwolf mi confermi o meno tutte le modifiche che ho in mente di attuare (ma non è detto che riesca fisicamente ad applicarle nei territori troppo piccoli), comincio col modificare il nord Africa... Almohadi e Hafsidi:


Non posso rispettare in modo preciso i confini proposti da CK2 nel post precedente (vedi ultimi 2 screenshot), ma diciamo che ci sono andato vicino

Intanto ho finito di svuotare la mappa dai colori... sono rimasti solo i contorni, solo che essendo sfumati (soprattutto la costa) le selezioni di zone di colore non sono semplici... parte dei contorni sono spariti insieme agli altri colori, oppure si sono assottigliati troppo... poi l'ho semplificata da immagine a 32 bit ad un'immagine bianco/nero... e fin qui niente di complicato, solo mi hanno impegnato un pò di tempo

Visto che dovrò eseguire il tracciamento dei confini, non posso lasciarli discontinui o mancanti, per cui sto correggendo tutti gli "errori" dovuti allo svuotamento, qui sotto un esempio delle correzioni (in rosso) nella zona della Crimea:

Dovrei riuscire a trasformarla in un disegno vettoriale, in modo da creare con gli offset i livelli superiori per le colline e le montagne.

Allora il mio parere è che gli screenshot che hai inserito vengono da un gioco, che per quanto curato ha dei compromessi per il proprio regolamento, esattamente come MedioEvo Universalis; prendo ad esempio l'Islanda che era da poco divenuta parta del regno di Norvegia, ma in realtà rimase autonoma nei fatti per molto tempo anche dopo 1263; in sintesi domini temporanei sono considerati indipendenti (Baalbek) e le zone contese sono assegnate ad uno dei due (Costa lituana alla Lituania; Macedonia alla Serbia; Moldavia all'orda d'oro). Il punto è cercare di rimanere coerenti, logicamente non è stato possibile inserire tutto. Il ducato di Bretagna esisteva, ma non come potenza piuttosto si barcamenava come vassallo fra Francia ed Inghilterra, non so quanto sia utile al gioco il suo inserimento (penso che si tratterebbe di un dominio di una sola provincia).

Per la Scozia effettivamente sopravvivevano dei territori in mano ai norvegesi, ma ormai non erano più centri di espansione, ma dei domini residui. Se per il gioco sono utili (magari per dare degli obbiettivi "facili" allo scozzese) o per qualche motivo logistico inseriamoli pure, altrimenti sono superflui.

I territori Danesi sono l'espressione di una volontà di espansione nel Baltico non praticabile e che entro una quarantina d'anni sarebbero scomparsi a vantaggio dei cavalieri teutonici. L'accesso al mare per la Lituania non ce lo vedo per il semplice motivo che erano zone pesantemente contese con l'Ordine teutonico e se all'interno prevalevano i Lituani, sulla costa i cavalieri avevano un maggiore controllo. (Ad ogni modo non vi erano porti di una rilevanza internazionale, Memel era un castello con una cittadina riconosciuta da appena 6 anni).

Guarda se si vuole dare importanza alla Georgia, che comunque era una potenza regionale in generale sulla difensiva, allargala un gocciolino sul Caucaso e falla divenire 2 province.

silverwolf ha scritto:Allora il mio parere è che gli screenshot che hai inserito vengono da un gioco, che per quanto curato ha dei compromessi per il proprio regolamento, esattamente come MedioEvo Universalis; prendo ad esempio l'Islanda che era da poco divenuta parta del regno di Norvegia, ma in realtà rimase autonoma nei fatti per molto tempo anche dopo 1263; in sintesi domini temporanei sono considerati indipendenti (Baalbek) e le zone contese sono assegnate ad uno dei due (Costa lituana alla Lituania; Macedonia alla Serbia; Moldavia all'orda d'oro). Il punto è cercare di rimanere coerenti, logicamente non è stato possibile inserire tutto.

Perfetto, quello che hai scritto è chiaro e mi hai tranquillizzato sulle scelte fatte fin'ora per la mappa di MedioEvo Universalis... ricordiamoci però che io CI TENGO MOLTISSIMO, FORSE ANCHE TROPPO (ma tanto lo sai) alla veridicità storica di quello che stiamo facendo.
Tu hai le conoscenze... mi raccomando, non sottovalutare quello che sai riguardo tutti gli aspetti storici che poi si trovano nel gioco, preferisco che tu mi racconti 100 cose e poi metterne in pratica solo 10 piuttosto che tu me ne dica solo 5 e le altre 5 mi devo "arrangiare".

silverwolf ha scritto:Il ducato di Bretagna esisteva, ma non come potenza piuttosto si barcamenava come vassallo fra Francia ed Inghilterra, non so quanto sia utile al gioco il suo inserimento (penso che si tratterebbe di un dominio di una sola provincia).

"si barcamenava come vassallo fra Francia ed Inghilterra", quindi a conti fatti non faceva parte nè del Regno di Francia, nè del Regno di Inghilterra... direi quindi di creare il Ducato di Bretagna di un solo territorio.

silverwolf ha scritto:Per la Scozia effettivamente sopravvivevano dei territori in mano ai norvegesi, ma ormai non erano più centri di espansione, ma dei domini residui. Se per il gioco sono utili (magari per dare degli obbiettivi "facili" allo scozzese) o per qualche motivo logistico inseriamoli pure, altrimenti sono superflui.

Ok, effettivamente non ho "spazio" per questi territori, per cui non li inseriamo.

silverwolf ha scritto:I territori Danesi sono l'espressione di una volontà di espansione nel Baltico non praticabile e che entro una quarantina d'anni sarebbero scomparsi a vantaggio dei cavalieri teutonici. L'accesso al mare per la Lituania non ce lo vedo per il semplice motivo che erano zone pesantemente contese con l'Ordine teutonico e se all'interno prevalevano i Lituani, sulla costa i cavalieri avevano un maggiore controllo. (Ad ogni modo non vi erano porti di una rilevanza internazionale, Memel era un castello con una cittadina riconosciuta da appena 6 anni).

I territori Danesi, proprio perchè durerebbero ancora una quarantina d'anni, mi piacerebbe inserirli... sto provando, ma è un casino... uff.
Ok anche per non inserire l'accesso al mare della Lituania per mancanza di "spazio".

silverwolf ha scritto:Guarda se si vuole dare importanza alla Georgia, che comunque era una potenza regionale in generale sulla difensiva, allargala un gocciolino sul Caucaso e falla divenire 2 province.

Ok.

Per i danesi non mi dannerei l'anima, con tutto il rispetto una striscia di terreno infruttuoso che qualsiasi giocatore abbandonerebbe in tempo 0 non è molto utile a meno di non inserire 2 porti adiacenti e quindi rendere la provincia un buon piede a terra nell'area.

Mi hanno chiesto in molti un esempio di modifica della mappa, come opero, quali sono i passaggi, ecc. ecc.
Vediamo se riesco a rendere l'idea.

Prima di tutto isolo la zona di mappa da modificare, inutile portarsi dietro un file gigantesco:


Poi vado a recuperare parte del riempimento ancora "vergine" salvato in uno step precedente e lo incollo sulla zona da modificare:


Ritaglio pezzi di mappa che mi torneranno utili per le modifiche macroscopiche:


Completato il Regno di Aragona e ho fatto una prova sul Regno di Navarra per vedere se ci stavano tutte le icone:


Continuo con una serie di micromodifiche:


Finalmente riesco a completare anche il Regno di Navarra e cominciare il Regno di Castiglia:


Finito:

Faccio lo stesso esempio con il Regno di Ungheria, non commento i vari passaggi.













Finito:

Regno di Aragona o Corona di Aragona? Questo è il problema...
Su BGG ci sono 2 spagnoli, uno dei quali catalano, che mi stanno tirando matto riguardo al nome che ho dato: Regno di Aragona.

Riporto qui la discussione in inglese:

Carlos
Hi, my name's Carlos ,from Barcelona, Spain. Before all, congratulations for your great job, this game have anything "special", different.
I writte here because i have many documentation about things related of Aragon and his diplomatic relationships in the Mediterranean zone. I have all the chronicles of that period in catalan and latin, many diplomatic posts, and documents of the courts of Catalonia (today knowed as Aragon). Please, ask me if you need any information, i will answer happily.
Two notes; The Byzantine Empire is a modern name, the true name in this period was "Greek Empire". And Kingdom of Aragon its too a modern name, the name in the medieval period was simply "Catalonia", and all the reigns of this dominions were independent, only united by the king, that, it's true, used as first title King of Aragon. See you.

Carlos
Courts of Barcelona year 1292.
XLII. Item ordinamus et statuimus quod aliquo tempore Regnum vel insule Maiorice et Eviçe et Minorise et alie insule subjacentes dicto Regno non dividantur nec alienentur nec possit dividi vel alienari nec dari ad feudum vel ad proprietatem per venditionem per cambium per absolutionem nec per filium vel per filiam vel per aliquam aliam rationem que dici vel nominari possit a dominatione Cathalonie et dictorum Regnorum Aragonum et Valencie et Comitatus Barchinone. Immo
promittimus per nos et omnes heredes et successores nostros presentes et futuros quod nos nec ipsi heredes vel successores nostri non dividemus nec dividi faciemus consenciemus seu permittemus dictum Regnum Maiorice et insulas de Eviça et de Minorica et alias insulas ipso Regno subjacentes in totum vel in partem a Regnis Aragonum et Valencie et comitatu Barchinone. Immo volumus et concedimus quod imperpetuum dictum Regnum Maiorice et insule supradicte sint in simul et conjuncte dictis Regnis Aragonum et Valencie et Comitatui Barchinone sine medio et sine aliquo intervallo. Sic scilicet quod aliqua persona non possit dictum Regnum nec insulas supradictas in totum vel in partem pro nobis vel heredibus ac successoribus tenere in feudum honorabile vel in alio modo. Immo Rex Aragonum et Valencie et Comes Barchinone imperpetum teneat corporaliter et corpus ad corpus et apropiate sibi ipsi dictum Regnum Maiorice et insulas eidem subjacentes superius nominatas. ..........

Carlos
Hi Nicola!
I know the 1260-1300 period.I read de Universal(all the kingdoms) and General(only County of Barcelona) catalan courts of James and i have his autobibliografy, written by his own hands, "El llibre des feits".
I want to be easy for understand all the information:
-Name of the state in diplomacy .- "Catalonia" or "Catalonia dominions".
-Name of the kingdoms of Catalonia.- Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Valencia, Kingdom of Mallorca (ruled by the County of Barcelona) and County of Barcelona (Principality of Catalonia since 1311).
-Kind of Monarchy.- Constitutional since this period (Laws & Constitutions for the County, Rights for the others)The king must vote actions in the "Parlament" (this is a catalan word that means "talk's place").
-Ruler House.- House of Aragon.
-Ruler lineage.-House of Barcelona.
-Governement of the Kingdoms.- All had is own Court except Mallorca, that was ruled (although in any period has a vasal king)by the general Courts of Catalonia, the courts of the County of Barcelona. Every Court was independent in all the history of this kingdoms until the extreme that many times the aragonese not participate in many wars, only the King's bodyguard that was all aragonese by law.
Well...... more tomorrow...ja,ja,ja.

Carlos
Here i am!!!
Well, i continue ( not time for all...)
-The sovereign was called normally.- "King of Aragon"(later "and Sicily").
-Diplomaticy.- Catalan Consul (for all the kingdoms), the most importants Jaume Aimerich consul in Tartaria (China/Khanates),consul of Damasc and the consul in Alexandrie.Joan de Procida.
-Alliances.- Tartars (Khanates), Greek Empire.
-Name of the Traders.- Catalan traders.
-Technology.- First powder mines of Europe in Cardona, a tartar tech donated from Khanates consuls of Ripoll, a village of Girona. James the Conqueror had a rudimentary gunpowder and Siege primary cannons only for siege. Modern paper (a catalan word) from khanates too.
-Major events.-
*Siege of Tunis (Ifryquiya).- Satelite nation after defeat.
*Sicilian Vespers.- Catalan invasion of Sicily after the sicilian call of help against franco-provençals. Now the king is called "Kinf of Aragon and Sicily", Peter the Great.Invasion financed by the greeks.
*Crusade against Peter the Great.- The Pope excomunique the king Peter and 120.000-150.0000 european crusaders invade Catalonia. The kingdoms of Mallorca and Aragon betray their king and negates help.The greeks have problems and cease subsidy,the clergs negates help and many noblemen not support Peter. The king aprove free actions for the corsairs and almogaver mercenaries, the traders raise a corsair fleet and almogavers make "guerrilla" attacs. Heroic defense of the city of Girona by the Count of Cardona. The crusaders low morale by the "guerrilla" attacs and the lack of supplies, because the admirall Roger de Lluria control the sea after the naval battle of the Formigues (Nelson will make the same tactic 6 centuries later). Epidemy help to destroy the crusaders.
-Special warriors.- Almogavers. Light professional infantry, trained in short sword ,javelin and ballista. Specialist in the use of terrain for the battle , sometimes modifies terrain for surprise tactics in combat; warriors since childs, their women fight sometimes for place defenses.
Well...I think it's all. Any other question?? Next post i will assessore you for that you call "Kingdom of Castilla". See you.

Carlos
Hi Nicola.
First i must say that the consul in the Khanates (China) was Jaume Alarig (not Aimerich, sorry).The permanent embassy from the IlKhan in Ripoll was about 1270, so the technology is about this years. Jaume I died in 1276, and there is a engrave with his armies shooting a cannon in a siege and in Madrid there is his gunpowder and the dragon helmet.
About the particular events, maybe these can be usefull, you try:
-Noblemen revolt in the Kingdom of Aragon. Jaume I raised a catalan army and, after a few fights, defeated the aragonese.
-Constantly revolts in Valencia and Murcia (the last occuped from Castillians/spanish with Alfonso X pact) by the moors/sarracens, not finnished until Peter the Great was the King (the best Knight in the world, said Dante).
-The onlyone sovereign that assisted to the ecumenic concilium of Lion II (1274).
-Ramon Llull.-Philosopher,poet and theologer.Wrote more than 400 works in catalan, latin and arabian.The medieval Leonardo da Vinci.Author of the literary catalan, the romantic novel "Blanquerna", maybe the first european, and was the first european writting philosophic and scientific texts in different language than latin(1274).
I don't remember more things.
And about the "Sant Narcís Flyes", i have two chronicles of this period in my library, the "Chronicles" of Bernat Desclot (he lived the events) and the "Gesta comitum Barcinonensium et regnum Aragonum" that talk obout this event. In the first,these avents are very well explained, if you want i can send you the complte chapter in catalan (original) or i can translate. The catalan is very similar to occitan ,that maybe in North Italy you speak it.
See you!!

Carlos
Ops! I forget a important event in Europe, the challenge of Peter the Great with Charles d'Anjou in Burdeos(1282).Charles , after the catalan invasion of Sicily (and Sicilian Vespers) challenged Peter in a tournament of 100 knights per King(including them), and Peter accepted smiling .Peter was young and a famous fighter, rather than Charles that was old and with no knowed habilities of fight.All Europe was shocked. Peter select their best catalan, aragonese and a few italian gibelines and sicilians knights for the fight and went to Bourdeos, but the city's "senescal" warn him that the french were with eight thousand knights and that battle camp was a trap.Peter was present in the battle camp early ,on the selected day, said that nobody was here and retired fast to Catalonia; he accomplish the pact. The king of France (Philip), Charles and their army detect the cunning and pursuit Peter, but his clever trick win and managed to escape from the trap after a hard pursuit. The two kings claimed the victory for the opponent dishonour.The complete history is long and looks like an adventure film, i can tell you more details of the pursuit if you need.
This event tryed to be prevented by the Pope, the king of England and the most of the royal families, but there was no posible.
I will come back early!!

Carlos
Well, sorry but i must warn yo about an error in your map. You make a mistake with the Kingdom of Navarra. This kingdom is not the actual basque country. The Kingdom of Navarra is described in the Chronicles of Bernat Desclot in the retourn of Charles d'Anjou callenge with Peter the Great. Peter made the road France-Castilla-Aragon without to walk on navarrese territory because were in conflict. The Kingdom of Navarra was a little more on South-East than you drew, and had no sea (important).
And i have a question.....in the Kingdom of Castilla (we will talk more after about this name), you draw the coat of arms of the nation or of the royal signal? because are different, although difficult to know.

Veldriss ha scritto:I used this map on wikipedia... about 1360... but I think is the same situation in my period: about 1265... there is the Kingdom of Navarra about in the same position on my map and with a small zone of sea coast... It's wrong? Have you a map about 1265-1300 plz?



Yes, my Kingdom of Navarra is bigger than the historical Kingdom, but I need space to draw coat of arms and to put some miniatures of the game.



-

Could you show me the coat of arms of the nation and the royal signal please?

I used this:

Veldriss ha scritto:carlos send me an email with some images:

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Signal of King of Castilla, the same that the Kingdom of Cyprus(dinastic links):


Map of the actual autonomic comunity of Navarra, near the same of the kingdom of Navarra. Look that there is a fine line between the basque country (part of Castilla in the time of your game) and France. The Bernat Desclot chronicle show the road of his escape.


You can see the escape road of Peter the Great after the Burdeus challenge. Burdeus>Baione>Fonterrabia castle(actual Ondarrabia)>frontier line between Navarra and Castilla until Moncayo mountain>Tarrazona (Aragon).


A note: Ondarrabia (Fonterrabia castle) is near Irun and was land of the King of Castilla, Moncayo mountain is in the borderland of the three medieval Kingdoms. In your source map, the lands of the King of Navarra are in the basque country that was land of the King of Castilla. I write more in your forum.
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Actually when I made Historical research on internet I found this image:

that show the same things explained by jose carlos gallego...
I had almost forgotten ... but I was also forced to enlarge the kingdom of Navarra to put miniatures... better to remove kingdom of Navarra?
I'll think, but it is not easy to find a solution.

Veldriss ha scritto:carlos gallego send me an email:
"I think you can do this modifications, what do you think?
I change the Andalusia occ. for Sevilla, the historical name of the province (Kingdom of Sevilla, although without courts, only poumpose name).
I send you too a samples of two games of the period that i'm working (differents of your in many things)."

So I try to modify my map:


What do you think jose carlos gallego? Could it be ok now or I must modify something more?

Carlos
Hi Nicola. Your modification is ahistorical. The terms New and Old Castilla are sons of the fascist Spain, but don't worry, i send you the correct map by e-mail. The map that i send you is made with the bibliography of the Courts of Castilla and Catalonia that you can find in http://www.archive.org ,search "Cortes de los antiguos reinos", there are many documents of the different Courts.In the Castilla domains are more little provinces (they called kingdoms, but not really because had no independent courts), but i put the most importants for your game.

Carlos
I'm afraid that the Catalonia's dominions are out of playable kingdoms.In this period, Castilla did't losed territories of Murcia and the south thanks to the catalans, and the Greek Empire saves his ass thanks to the catalan invasion of Sicilia, when Charles d'Anjou was ready to attack Constantinopla with a formidable army waiting in South Italy. The catalan King of Aragon, Peter the great, was the only monarch in Europe so valiant to challenge the franco-provençals of Charles in his power's climax. Of course, i understand that Castilla is more easy for gaming thanks to the map position and ,for his propaganda, is more knowed.The Catalonia's dominions is difficult for play because had no extense lands, and for the purpose of the game you need big kingdoms, but the catalans had a great relations with all Europe, you can see the dinastic expansion over Europe looking the coat of arms, is in all Europe!!!
Think for a future expansion.

Veldriss ha scritto:I know all of it... some years later the Catalonia's dominions will became very strong with extense lands, but all Europe became too much different... must change all prototype? :p


I will change next map with your modification, I will use the second below because I need 7 territories for each Player:

Carlos
The change is important because Castilla now is directly connected with
Europe. This one is important for the playability of the game, and more historical.This zone was very important in this period for the nexus of differents events. Now i'm reading a book of Stefano Maria Cingolani, the life of Peter the Great of Aragon(dinasty), that shows a long work of research in the different europen archives about the diplomatic and domestical letters of this king (and the lasts years of James I). This italian historian compare the letters of different monarchs and their chronicles, and says that this frontier was a strategic land. You will see in your playtestings.

Carlos
Hi Nicola, I'm Jose Carlos. First i must insist that the Kingdom of Aragon was only one of the kingdoms ruled by the House of Aragon, the kingdom that put name on the dinasty but , in fact, the less powerfull of the monarchy. If you want to put the name "Aragon" because is the most well-know you can put the names "House of Aragon" or "Crown of Aragon"; the two are historical too.

Veldriss ha scritto:Hi Carlos!
excellent, I immediately change the name to "Crown of Aragon", THX!

Carlos
Piracy in the Aragon dinasty was absolutely controlled by the almiralty. There were 3 almiralties, one for Principalty of Catalonia (also knowed as Barcelona County), one for Kingdom of Valencia and one for Kingdom of Mallorcas; the three were under command of a royal almiralt. In normal war times the almiralties were sourced by gold of every court (a court for every kingdom except Mallorcas, that was vassal of Catalonia)and by self sources,one of them was piracy. The almiralt of every kingdom decides how take his resources for faster accions and had the power of negociation with enemy before talk with the king. Piracy in deep sea and coastal raids were good sources for maintain the fleets and these armies were recogniced by the king. Catalans were excellent coastal raiders and used three kinds of troops for launch storm attacks: the "genets" were moor light cavalry of the Kingdom of Valencia that open the amphibious attack with a fast exit of the galley's back gate, second (and many times first) comes the "mariners"(catalans), that were the headbeach infantry troops that secure the beach/port and initiates the first attack, and third comes the famous "almogavers"(catalan and aragonese),professional frontier light infantry mercenaries that devastate in hours many kilometres around.Almogavers usually attack in inferiority number/odds and were a savage and unmercifull assassins, difficult for control although for his own commands.
The other kind of catalan piracy was in desperate times. The king of Aragon and Count of Barcelona had a privilege named "Princeps Namque". When he invoque this one, all the people of all the kingdoms are called in arms, with all permission of pillage and murder for the enemies of the king. In this times of "free for all", the most important merchand families of the city of Barcelona, like the Marquet or the Mallol families, raised privated pirates fleets for plunder the enemy coast and employ almogavers mercenaries. These merchands profited these times for clean the seas of personal rival merchands of other nations and for grow their personal fortunes and increase their trade routes. Thanks to these private/pirate fleets, the king dominates their seas without spend gold, although loses momentarely the control of taxes until better times.
When these pirates were captured by enemy, the king negociates the randsom and normally were exchanged for rellevant prisioners of the raids.

Carlos
About the nationalities of the Kingdoms ruled by the Aragon House.
In the XIII century were two nations under the monarch control; one was the aragonese that lived in the Kingdom of Aragon and in continental zones of the Kingdom of Valencia, and other was the catalans, who habited the lands of the Catalonia's Principality, Kingdom of Mallorcas, the most of the Kingdom of Valencia and the Rousillon (now France). The two nations were frequently in disputes and went to the wars camping in separate camps to avoid confrontations before battle. The catalans were seaman people after conquer the califate of Mallorcas and aragonese were ever land warriors.
It's important to know that many times the king went to wars only with support of a part of the kingdoms. Rarelly went all the kingdoms togheter to war. Normally the sea campaigns were only supported by the "catalan" kingdoms because the merchand economic interest, and the only kingdom that their courts ever supported the king wars was the Principality of Catalonia, thanks to the barcelonese financement. For this, the King of Aragon many times is refered in diplomatic letters as the "Emperor of Barcelona" or "Senyor de Barcelona". Many of the pirate/corsair campaigns were supported only for barcelonese merchands.One of the "slogans" that becomes after the time in catalan flags was "SEMPER FIDELES", because the ever support of their king. The aragonese noblemen that supported the king in the outremer campaigns were mostly of the catalan speak part of the kingdom of Aragon, as the County of Ribagorça, ruled by catalan laws but part of the aragonese court.

OneManCrafts
Hello, from someone from Spain. I find this all quite interesting, besides the very high production level I'm seeing in those photos. Kudos to both.
(I always studied it as a pair of main kingdoms, Aragon and Castilla, being Castilla the one with more population. But little more, wish high school studies had gone bit farther...)

Carlos
The history in the spanish schools is an autentic disaster. Children learn the same as in Franco times and the system it's so bad that Spain haven't a museum of spanish history!
There are two lines in spanish history, the line of politics (the same as in fascist period) and the line of the catedratic in the University, this last far of the oficial in children schools.
An example is the book of the University of Granada, "La repoblación del reino de Sevilla en el siglo XIII", the author reveals that the documents of population of the XIII century in these lands and the numbers that shows the copies in the XVIII century are blow up until X10 times. Villages that lived 20 person are adulterated in the "copied" documents and shows 200 person!And this occurs with nearly all the comparatives about the original and the copy.
The only way for know the spanish medieval history is investigation. If you can read in castillian(oficial spanish language), catalan , galician and latin languages, today you can investigate the most of the documents only having internet at home and search links. You will find a lot of surprises!

OneManCrafts
I couldn't agree more... Indeed, I do with any matter. Yet though I have needed the time to do so with other very different subjects, sadly. (history is nicer to study) A lot of people anyway will just stop on a half made wikipedia article, and wont look in all those sources. I personally like to research a lot before going for a specific theory. (Sadly, those of us who did choose science at high school, and later dedicated to technical matters, have quite less history knowledge)
There's also a lot of interpretation going on in matters like art(more on my field) or history, people going for an specific point of view more than being objective. A great reason to do own's research very seriously.

OneManCrafts
Nicola,
Have to tell you something I really wish you keep it to your self, but which might be of help. It's important that you don't tell any one, I don't want to upset anyone.
That map and several comments from Carlos... Those could be correct, and he could be right stating that national Spanish university or high school books are wrong, but I need to warn you as you are doing a game with historic accuracy, it's important to you: There's a lot of effort going on all over internet in making not so 'true' statements and theories about history, mostly in all referring to Spain's history, by people really fond of several Spanish regions(comunidades autónomas). These people take its as a mission to spread the word that their regions were a country and had more importance than asumed in history books (and am afraid they'd also accuse non Spanish history books...). That frontiers were different, etc. The Catalans are specially (the more active) into this. People from Pais vasco do as well, and not so much, also people from Galicia. Any would state things against the standard history line as a common front.
He could be perfectly right in many details, though(often the deviation is in subtle but key details). Indeed, this what he mentions of Franco's times, where history was told totally far from the facts, documents and truth, is completely certain: my parents were taught some big lies about history. But once democracy came, very serious studies about the matter have been done, a lot of years in this line have passed.
Many of these people wont do it in a mean way. They tho wish to stick to any theory pointing to their interest/passion. Others, just lie. In other cases, they will point out actual inaccuracies.
He could be certain in a lot of details, but if I were you, specially in the matters of the map, names, population, real domains, etc, I would really, really, check serious sources. If you buy his theory, then check it with non national, no Spanish sources, to eliminate the possible doubt.
I'm not an history expert, which he might be. I am just a graphic artist/illustrator with certain general culture. But I know pretty well about this social fact of our times which I am mentioning to you, so that you are aware, and check his statements with as many sources as you can. If he's right, he will have been of great help. I just don't know him, and I thought the ethic thing was to tell you about the general situation. Just check things a lot.
Sorry, for having geekmailed you, if you do not appreciate this kind of thing.
Regards,

OneManCrafts
Nicola, I think I warned you before...
This stuff he mentions about being Catalonia instead of Aragon reign.. Is pure inaccuracy. By very far. This is the catalan independentists tend to push it too far, inventing out of fantasy, and very fake data.
I am not a "Spain's nation die hard", by any means, I'm a bit against any nationalism as it tends to end up in ego centric stuff, and leads less social and generous feelings about people. IE: never understood this what righteous govs tend to criticize of our lefties previous ones, when they used to help generously countries in bad conditions. "Better care for a Spain's family than some one from Africa". But if the africa family is starving, ans Spain's one wouldn't (yet), there's every single reason to help first the African one... But even so, me not caring at all about both types of nationalism, that map is just funny. If you put it so, any one with some cultural formation about Spain is going to make a big laugh (of your game, I am a afraid)... This was some time ago, so, to be sure, I consulted with people well versed in medieval history.. Man, they had some laughs when I told them this man's theories and pointed them to this thread.
I don't expect/need you to believe me, but I hope you would check yourself much more official and serious sources.
Never ever blindly trust people that is too fan of certain matter, as you might end up with a very deformed version of the facts, and the scientists community approved conclusions...
If they need, they will base a whole theory in thin air, or even invent, as the "cause worths it" (yeh, many think that!), because they feel is ok in their "fight". I really really don't care. We have this issue in Spain of a big percentage of catalans wanting to separate from the country, and what they mostly don't know is that the rest of Spain mostly wont care. We only really don't want to happen again like always, that they take the biggest unfair cut from the Spain's government, with the pressure/blackmail tactics. (they will tell you the opposite, that they pay too much due to us, etc. While they have the biggest debt of all regions, and more privileges than any other region, lol )
So, I'm ok with all that, with separation, etc. No need to tell a lies about history, tho... shake It was Castilla and Aragon, (And Navarra) full stop... This indeed does not makes any obstacle to the fact that a 70% right now might want independence. I'm perfectly ok with that, but the Constitution needs to be changed first, and the rest of the country vote as well, as if not, they would be breaking the rules they also signed in its day. From an economic, market, organizational, point of view and social aspects, is not clever, even for them, they might get into a very bad road, a bit of the way of the Dodo, but there comes a point when one does not even care any more. Just hearing certain crazy inaccuracies, or even seeing some funny map.. I do not want to intervene, as I don't want to fight, neither hear that of that I'm a General Franco fan, or a righteous guy, while my mind is totally at the left and with the people that has nothing to eat and are oppressed by practically everyone else... But they would use any argument. So better I avoid it, just warning you, go get/check more sources, and discover the real facts about Spain's medieval facts... Not some crazy theories of certain Catalonia's die hard (and I don't refer to the poster here) in a lost University of Spain, a practically single opinion based mostly in a powerful imagination. Facts, historic data that has been the object of real study, official data. That's imo the only way to go... they can harm your game a lot, specially if it gets finally produced and printed, is not something digital that you can update later once produced....
One way or the other, your game looks really gorgeous (I love miniatures, and lately am working producing models to end up i places like shapeways to be produced as real figures...I love any table top game including miniatures). Just would be a pity all that effort being wrecked by making this kind of enormous inaccuracies and laughable maps...

Veldriss ha scritto:GOOD MORNING OneManCrafts and Thank you very much for your interest about about Spain and especially Catalonia.
Me too I'm not an history expert, which he might be. I am just a technical designer with certain general culture.
I honestly do not know how to behave and what I could do, I tried the information on wikipedia ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_del ... _aragonese ), but also on the Italian history books is called Kingdom of Aragon and not Kingdom of Catalonia ( es: http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/reg ... ericiana)/ ).
I would not know where to look, but it seems strange that it is so difficult to find authoritative sources on this topic.
Would not it be better to call it the Crown of Aragon instead of Kingdom of Aragon?

Che fatica...

Ho chiesto aiuto nei vari forum, ma come sempre è difficilissimo ricevere aiuto... fortunatamente Silverwolf si è prodigato ed è andato a spolverare i suoi libri... ecco la sua risposta:

Silverwolf ha scritto:Allora effettivamente il termine esatto al 100% per indicare la fazione sarebbe Corona d'Aragona. Poi in Italia troviamo usati indifferentemente "domini aragonesi", "regno d'Aragona", "corona d'Aragona" dipende dall'atlante storico. Probabilmente gli spagnoli (catalani probabilmente), giustamente, si sono soffermati su un punto per loro importante nella loro storia anche se molto formale.
Se non è un gran disturbo cambia il nome della fazione con "Corona d'Aragona", se è un problema lascia stare o mettilo fra le cose da fare quando hai tempo.

Da IDG

Matt ha scritto:Da storico medievista ti posso dire che il tuo amico ti ha risposto bene, il nome preciso non esiste, formalmente ci si riferiva alla Corona d'Aragona ma i francesi chiamavano la zona in un modo, in Inghilterra ci si riferiva in un altro modo... Quindi concordo anch'io, meglio utilizzare il riferimento autoctono!

Indi per cui... sarà Corona di Aragona

Vediamo di aggiornare anche la mappa 2D con le modifiche preparate per quella 3D, non si sa mai che decida di ristamparla e aggiornare anche quella

Cominciamo con il nord della Francia, questa è la versione del 2012:


Questa è la versione del 2014, il passo di Calais non è più considerato uno STRETTO, appare il Ducato di Bretagna e riappare la Lorena (che faceva parte della versione della mappa quando c'erano 8 territori per ogni Regno giocante):

Aggiunta del 6° mazzo delle TECNOLOGIE e inserimento della grafica per la nuova meccanica delle CALAMITA' (https://www.medioevouniversalis.org/phpB ... 336#p13314):


Inserimento della regola dello STRETTO tra Corsica e Sardegna e aggiornamento minimo delle zone di mare, versione 2012:


Versione 2014:


Inserimento della regola dello STRETTO a est della Crimea e aggiornamento minimo delle zone di mare, versione 2012:


Versione 2014: