Re: Layout and look of the new map

Genesis and assembling from the first ideas until the creation of the prototype

Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda silverwolf il 7 giugno 2016, 21:15

Ok sorry, with your indications it’s clearer…I’ll change in my list territory 2-Turov, n.5-Murom/Ryazan and n.6-Vladimir. Moscow in 1260 was a secondary creml (castle) with a small village, nothing important. There aren’t any links, I took the names from the geographic maps on Riasanovsky, the book on Russian history I used for my university exam. :)

Each one is independent, but part of a “system”, a sort of coalition led by the Principality of Vladimir. It’s not easy to explain.
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:16

Another doubt: the dark red territory of the Grand-duchy of Lithuania, the one between the Teutonics and territory n.3 at the north, it can’t be Lithuanian…maybe it should be a Russian Principality? If so, which one, Minsk?

Another thing: can you confirm the size of the Principality of Galicia and Volinia? (The 3 pale blue territories between Bulgaria, Hungary, Lithuania and Golden Horde).

Caffa and the Crimean Peninsula I will leave them a Genoese colony.

Then I will put the Kingdom of Georgia and the Empire of Trabzon right, which means I will have to make a decision about the Byzantine Empire: it won’t be easy, but I will have to sacrifice the smaller kingdoms.
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda silverwolf il 7 giugno 2016, 21:17

The Lithuanian territory which confines with 2, 3, and 4 should definitely be the Principality of Polock. Galicia is a bit bigger and would be made of the south province of the Lithuanians and the west of territory n.2. The other 2 provinces I will check but the one west of Crimea should be of the Golden Horde.
The last province should be Moldavia, formerly Bulgaria but vassal of the Golden Horde.

Crimea ok.
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:18

The Principality of Galicia-Volinia or Halych- Volhyn was a nation inhabited by Rutenians that existed from 1199 till 1349. It was called principality or kingdom depending on who was ruling.
West Galicia-Volinia was between the rivers San and Wieprz in what is today south east Poland, whereas the eastern territories were the Pripet Marshes (modern Belorussia). The northern territories were modern Ukraine (Southern Buh). It bordered with what is modern Navahrudak, the Grand-duchy of Lithuania, the Principality of Turov-Pinsk, Principality of Kiev, the Khanate of the Gold Horde, the Kingdom of Hungary, the Kingdom of Poland, the Principality of Moldova, and the Monastic State of the Teutonic Cavaliers.
Together with the Republic of Novgorod and the Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal, it was one of the 3 important Nations that were born from the end of Kiev an Rus’.

Immagine
Various phases of expansion/reduction

Then I found this image here, what do you think, is it realistic?

Immagine

Here it is 1270, maybe the Principality of Galicia-Volinia 5-6 years back hadn’t got to the shores of the Black Sea…you tell me.

P.s. if you cut/paste the URL you will see the complete image.
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda silverwolf il 7 giugno 2016, 21:18

The last one is correct, but consider that the south area (the one with lines on the first map) in 1260 was distant from Galicia. Maybe we should take a small part of northern territory away and give it to Galicia (at the first bend of the Dniester)
The area between the 2 rivers is for 70% under the Golden Horde (the south part, west of Crimea). The remaining 30% is too small to create a part, maybe we could make Galicia bigger (the zone confining with Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and territory n.2).
But Imho is ok, as the borders are always changing. :D
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:19

Let’s see if it’s ok like this:

Immagine

Territories from 1 to 7:
1 - Principality of Cernigov
2 - Principality of Turov
3 - Principality of Smolensk
4 - Principality of Tver
5 - Principality of Murom/Riazan’ (written like this?)
6 - Principality of Vladimir
7 - Principality of Polock

But according to the last map you posted it appears that Cernigov borders with Lithuania and Galicia…so Turov wouldn’t border with the Golden Horde…Polock should be smaller…so I think territories 1-2-7 should rotate slightly in an anticlockwise direction:
- I would give half of 2 to 1.
- 1/3 of 7 would be given to 2.
- half of 1 would go to the Golden Horde.

Another thing…to put the territory between Bulgaria/Hungary/Galicia/Golden Horde right (since you said that in that period it wasn’t under Galicia but more under the Golden Horde, I eliminated the Dniester river and separated between Galicia and the Golden Horde…ok?
Otherwise Moldova and Bessarabia can be separated by the Dniester river, both under the Golden Horde, but I would have to eliminate 1 territory (or I could unite the 2 territories between Crimea and Russians, or eliminate the territory on the far side of the river), what do you think?

As for the rest:
- 7 territories to the Mameluks with a small territory between the catholic nations and the Khanate
- Baghdad has disappeared
- the Empire of Trabzon and Kingdom of Georgia
- the Selgiuchidi Turks disappear as a player, and remain with 3 territories in central Turkey.

Let’s put the Russian territories right so we can then work on the Byzantine Empire. :P
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:21

Ok, I’ve put the Russian territories right, and also the Lithuania-Poland border…and I’ve worked on the Byzantine Empire with Epirus and the Duchy of Athens:

Immagine

All should be ok, right?

Silverwolf, please check and see if you can confirm everything…
And you find something wrong, even if relatively important, tell me so I can correct it straight away…because tomorrow I will start redoing the map. :shock:


I’m redoing the new map, but I have a doubt on the area of Moldavia and Bessarabia…I can’t understand who rules it…

If I look at this Mongol map these regions aren’t under their control:
Immagine

If I read about Moldavia it says that it becomes independent in 1359 and before that it had been invaded by the Bulgarian Empire, the Magyars, the Peceneghi, and the Golden Horde and then, in the XII century, Hungary extended its influence in this area and built some fortifications in Moldavia, near the river Siret.

If I search for information on Bessarabia I find: “the northern part of the territory, after the Mongol defeat in 1343 was part of the Principality of Moldavia. The southern part of the region is the historical Bessarabia, or Budiac, old Bessarabia or Bugeac in Romanian, Bugiac in Tartar, and Bugiak in Turk. From the 12th till the 14th century it was part of the Kiev Rus.

You tell me what to do…I was thinking of separating them like at the beginning…I would put Bessarabia under the Mongols…but who is Moldavia under??????? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Another doubt, about the Kingdom of Bohemia…I found this text on the English version of Wikipedia:
http://www.medioevouniversalis.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=874#p1670

In theory in 1262-1264 Styria is already under the Kingdom of Bohemia, se I should make it slightly bigger towards the south, right?

I have another problem…the heraldry of the Russian Principalities:
1 - Principality of Cernigov
2 - Principality of Turov
3 - Principality of Smolensk
4 - Principality of Tver
5 - Principality of Murom/Riazan’
6 - Principality of Vladimir
7 - Principality of Polock

I can’t find these coats of arms…I need them quite urgently because I have almost finished the map…
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Re: Layout and look of the new map

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:23

I think I’ve found a solution: http://www.medioevouniversalis.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=1864#p1864

If I read about Moldavia it says that it becomes independent in 1359 and before that it had been invaded by the Bulgarian Empire, the Magyars, the Peceneghi, and the Golden Horde and then, in the XII century, Hungary extended its influence in this area and built some fortifications in Moldavia, near the river Siret.

If I search for information on Bessarabia I find: “the northern part of the territory, after the Mongol defeat in 1343 was part of the Principality of Moldavia. The southern part of the region is the historical Bessarabia, or Budiac, old Bessarabia or Bugeac in Romanian, Bugiac in Tartar, and Bugiak in Turk. From the 12th till the 14th century it was part of the Kiev Rus.

You tell me what to do…I was thinking of separating them like at the beginning…I would put Bessarabia under the Mongols…but who is Moldavia under???????” :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: [/quote]

I tried searching on internet, trying to find something certain…
I also tried subscribing to the website http://www.moldweb.eu/ hoping in some help from the Moldavians…
Incredible, they answered immediately, some in Romanian (which I translate more or less correctly), but the answers confirmed that Moldavia was an unsettled region with Hungarian and Bulgarian influences and subjected to Mongol incursions…

So, even though it’s not 100% correct, I will put Moldavia under the Golden Horde.
Thanks to everyone who answered me on their forum, here is a link of the discussion: La Moldavia nel XIII sec.
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Changes to Spain

Messaggio da leggereda Veldriss il 7 giugno 2016, 21:26

I having also posted on BGG (BoardGameGeek) my prototype, I spoke some time ago with jose carlos gallego who pointed out some errors in the map area of Spain:

- first of all the Kingdom of Navarre at that historical period had no boundaries Atlantic Ocean (he tell me about story of the escape of Peter III the Great from Bordeaux to Spain just passing through this thin strip of land)

Immagine

Immagine

- Then some changes on the remaining borders of Spain and the historical names of the territories:

his proposals for modifications here and under my first amendment
Immagine

But then he added other minor corrections, including the names of the territories ... I will use as a model the last down, obviously tailored to the size of my prototype:
Immagine

More information of all discussion at: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6253097#6253097
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